Comments on Blog of Lema Nal: Post-Cult After Effects: Floating

In one of the previous posts ( http://lemanal.blog...

2009-02-03T15:34:00.000-08:00

In one of the previous posts ( http://lemanal.blogspot.com/2009/01/post-cult-after-effects-what-is-their.html ), I wrote that deprogramming or exit counseling may be more traumatic experience than the cult involvement. I think it can be a cause of post-cult depression or PTSD. I agree the deprogramming or exit counseling make a sudden change in a person's worldview and can cause confusion. Though, I am not sure what can be the cause of after exit counseling "floating" - this confusion itself or suggestion when exit counselors tell cult members what symptoms they should expect to experience after leaving.

Hassan was deprogrammed and, according to his words, experienced "floating" after leaving Moonism. I was not deprogrammed or exit counseled and left on my own after more than 3 years of doubting. For me, it was not a sudden change. I did not experience any "floating" before I read Hassan's "Combatting Cult Mind Control." In addition, I did not have most of the symptoms from Hassan's checklist.

"There are two possibilities here: One possibility...

2009-02-03T11:53:00.000-08:00

"There are two possibilities here: One possibility is that those who were not privy to this "literature" may just not be aware of this condition. The other possibility is that the condition is the product of suggestion."

You left out the possibility that someone who has been deprogrammed or counseled out had to do in a very short time the trajectory someone who gets out gradually does over the course of a longer time, sometimes even months of doubting and questioning.

Hassan himself has been deprogrammed by Ted Patrick, I believe. This is very abrupt and while these people "see the light" regarding cults in a true manner, they also buy out loads of new suggestions at the same time. This is a result of being removed from the cult influence very abruptly and being constantly told that they are under mind-control. Floating is simply the result of the confusion the person has or is going through due to this abruptness and new suggestions. In my opinion people who have been so deprogrammed or "helped" are sick and all they do in trying to "help" others is just to propagate their own sickness.

The mechanism is the same as that of the cult: selling out a lot of "truth", tightly mixed with fallacies. You unwittingly and unconsciously buy the fallacies together with the truth, and the strength of the truth itself is what hold the fallacies in place.

They can't get rid of the fallacies because in their mind it is associated with the truths, and, besides, if they try, the confusion they have gone through comes back. They are thus extremely on the defensive and are eventually reduced to stupid cultic behavior such as Hassan displays when his certainties are being challenged.

Monica and Bernie, thank you for comments. I think...

2009-02-03T10:14:00.000-08:00

Monica and Bernie, thank you for comments.

I think, in my case, "floating" was suggestion, not denial. In addition, I had the first episode of "floating" when I was doing Hassan's "powerful method of self-healing," that is, I was writing down my cult experience month by month. I am sure that I did not have any "floating" before that. This experience gave me impression that Hassan's recommendations may be dangerous. However, later, I thought that it was just a side effect because I did something wrong in following his recommendations. Now, I realize that it was not my fault.

Hassan's theory of many identities (real identity, pre-cult identity, cult identity, post-cult identity) and many sub identities does look strange. Actually, his "sub identities" are just different sides of a personality which everyone has.

He described his own "sub identities" - "idealist," "soldier," and so on - as the "sub identities" that he had before being involved in Moonism. As he writes, they were used by Moonism to create his new "cult identity." Later, as he writes, he "released" his "sub identities" from the "cult identity" and integrated them into the "post-cult identity."

He describes only "sub identities" gained before the cult involvement and during the cult involvement.

After leaving a cult, I gained some new "sub identities" because I have some new social roles. However, Hassan's theory does not include any new "sub identities" after leaving a cult.

To me, his theory looks like a big confusion. I agree that it is better to consider "sub identities" as just different social roles.

Hi Bernie and Lema,I've discussed this at some len...

2009-02-03T03:46:00.000-08:00

Hi Bernie and Lema,
I've discussed this at some length with Steve Hassan when I was working with him and have just responded on Bernie's blog, attempting to explain some of where he's coming from.
My own position on "floating" is that this is largely a constructed pathology and something that people who have been deprogrammed or "counseled out" (or people who have read anti-cult literature) seem to report experiencing more than people who leave on their own. There are two possibilities here: One possibility is that those who were not privy to this "literature" may just not be aware of this condition. The other possibility is that the condition is the product of suggestion. I suspect this may be the case, given people who leave cults and appear to be doing just fine.
Of course, anti-cultists would say that they were just unaware or in denial but in that case, the theory is put into the category of a pseudoscientific "unfalsifiable" theory because there would be no way to test it. If the person admits to the symptoms, they are sick. If they report not having the symptoms they are "in denial". This is a classic trick employed by bogus therapists in a number of different areas. While I do think that dissociation is a real phenomena, the way it is being used here is greatly exaggerated and over-diagnosed in ex cult members. There is a great deal of controversy surrounding the area of dissociative disorders within the larger mental health profession so what you're seeing here is really just the tip of the iceberg.

Thanks!Quote: "However, he writes that his approac...

2009-02-02T15:06:00.000-08:00

Thanks!

Quote: "However, he writes that his approach is that the "cult identity" should be split into "sub identities." Then, some of these identities should be integrated into the real identity, and some put away. The result of this process is "post-cult identity" which is, according to Hassan, is different from "pre-cult identity.""

LOL - this sounds like Scientology, a "thetan" with many "body thetans", and one needs to get rid of his body thetans who influence the main thetan unconsciously...

Now, presumably, being part of a jogging club, would also create a "jogging club identity" and, who knows, maybe "jogging club sub-identities"... Not speaking of a "pre-jogging club identity" and, if I ever decided to quit, a "post-jogging club identity"...

God knows how many of these identities, sub-, pre- and post- identities we carry around.

I think I'll go to a Church of Scientology to get rid of them. May even cost me less than $100 per 30 minutes... ;-)

In "Releasing the Bonds," chapter 2, Hassan writes...

2009-01-31T23:03:00.000-08:00

In "Releasing the Bonds," chapter 2, Hassan writes ( http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/books/rtb2.htm ):

"Cults consistently manipulate the elements that form an individual's identity, including important beliefs, values, and relationships. Cult mind control dissociates a person from his authentic identity, and makes his new cult identity dependent on the group. From a mental health perspective, cult mind control splits elements of an individual's psyche into another distinct personality. The cult member actually comes to exhibit symptoms of a "dissociative disorder," as defined in the DSM-IV, the diagnostic manual for the American Psychiatric Association (300.15). His behavior can also resemble that of a person with a dependent personality disorder."

So, according to Hassan, cult mind control creates "cult identity" and the existence of this "cult identity" is Dissociative Disorder Not Otherwise Specified (DSM-IV 300.15).

Then, he writes that after leaving a cult a person still has the "cult identity." According to Hassan, most cult experts and exit counselors help ex-cult members to suppress the "cult identity," but it still continues to exist and sometimes can be manifested.

However, he writes that his approach is that the "cult identity" should be split into "sub identities." Then, some of these identities should be integrated into the real identity, and some put away. The result of this process is "post-cult identity" which is, according to Hassan, is different from "pre-cult identity."

So, it seems that he thinks that if ex-cult members are counseled by other counselors (those who suppress the "cult identity") or not counseled at all, they have permanent Dissociative Disorder. If they are counseled by him, their "cult identity" is split and integrated into the real identity. In this way, they get rid of Dissociative Disorder. This means that he probably considers that all the ex-members of cults have permanent Dissociative Disorder unless they got his counseling.

"Floating" is temporary. However, according to Hassan "cult identity" exists constantly. That is, an ex-cult member has two identities - the real identity and the "cult identity." After leaving a cult, he or she lives most time in the real identity. However, still there is a possibility to temporarily switch to the "cult identity." This switch is "floating." The existence of the two identities - the real identity and the "cult identity" - is what Hassan calls Dissociative Disorder Not Otherwise Specified.

Both Hassan and Singer wrote that the episodes of "floating" can be caused by triggers. However, Hassan describes "floating" as a switch to the "cult identity." Singer describes "floating" as dissociation or spacing out. She did not write that "floating" has anything to do with the "cult identity." She did not mention the "cult identity" at all, describing "floating."

In addition to that, Singer considered "floating" as something normal, that all people experience sometimes. Just ex-members of cults experience "floating" episodes more often and for longer time. According to Hassan, since "floating" is a switch to the "cult identity," only people who have this identity can experience it. That is, according to Hassan, only ex-cult members experience "floating" and other people do not. So, he considers "floating" as pathology, not as a norm.

I find your posts and comparison studies interesti...

2009-01-31T17:14:00.000-08:00

I find your posts and comparison studies interesting. However, I don't quite understand some of the differences you make here.

Quote: "Since Hassan supports DID theory, he gives all the ex-cult members the diagnosis of Dissociative Disorder Not Otherwise Specified (DSM-IV 300.15). Margaret Singer wrote that only some ex-cult members have this disorder. "

You have quoted Singer a lot so I think I kind of understand what she means. However, I don't quite grasp what is Hassan's viewpoint.

Is this (DSM-IV 300.15) diagnostic on his part something permanent? Or something that only occurs from time to time?

From what I understand through your writings (I have not read Hassan's books), the "cult identity" the ex-member switch too during "floating" is something temporary, since it can be offset by desensitizing the trigger. Other than just giving it another name, thus, how is it different than what Singer is describing?